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NABI contract for New Jersey?
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RailBus63
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« on: January 06, 2007, 05:38:28 PM »

Saw this on the North American Bus Industries website - did NABI win a contract for New Jersey?

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Notice to Potential Suppliers

NABI is actively seeking qualified New Jersey based Small Business Enterprises (SBE) to supply components used in the production of our buses for an upcoming contract.  Prospective suppliers will be evaluated based on quality standards, overall competitiveness and their ability to deliver on time.  For more information please call 256-241-6557 M-F 8:00 - 4:30 p.m. CST[/u].
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2007, 06:25:18 PM »

Sounds like NABI got the Flx Metro-D replacement order - that RFP was due back in November.  There will be one more order likely following, for the first Nova RTSes (these were built in 1995-96).  NJT stated in their meeting at the start of the fiscal year (July 1), that they intended to replace the remaining transit and suburban buses besides the 1999-2000 Nova RTSes.  The next NJT board meeting is January 23, so there could be the formal announcement then.

There are 318 Metro Ds, 226 transits and 92 suburbans, plus 175 Nova RTSes (all transit) to be replaced (less those that may have been lost to accident).  I would imagine MTS and NABI will fight hard for that RTS replacement... the winner would have the inside track to replace that large batch of 650 RTSes, probably somewhere around 2012.

Surprised that MTS didn't make a proposal successful enough, considering they already have NJT's current specs for both transits and suburbans ready to go... it could have easily been an extension of the current contract.  Expect NABI 416 demos headed here to the Garden State later this year!
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2007, 08:46:30 PM »

So if this order is materialised, will this the first new NABI 416 (aka 40-SFW) order since the 2004 one for DART in Dallas,TX?
Also, I just wonder why NJ Transit dislikes low floor buses so immensely.  (Otherwise, they'll receive NABI 40-LFW's).  Thanks
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KCRam3500
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2007, 08:58:54 PM »

So if this order is materialised, will this the first new NABI 416 (aka 40-SFW) order since the 2004 one for DART in Dallas,TX?
Also, I just wonder why NJ Transit dislikes low floor buses so immensely.  (Otherwise, they'll receive NABI 40-LFW's).  Thanks
NJT has to order buses that essentially can be used anywhere in the system.  Unlike a typical TA, NJT actually has routes that would be considered rural, with no sidewalks or curbs to speak of...  they can't risk a low-floor bus being caught in a situation where it might not be able to serve the route.  Even the artics are spec'd in such a way that, if needed, they could be used on routes other than their normal assignments.  NJT also is not keen on the loss of seats... in order to match the productivity of a high floor bus, they would need more low floors than a 1:1 replacement, which they feel is a waste of money.

(By the way, NABI has never identified their standard bus as "SFW" - it has always been the Model 416, even when the company was American Ikarus.)
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Mr. Harlem Line
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2007, 10:50:34 PM »

Wow. So when will the Metro Ds be replaced?
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2007, 12:50:58 AM »

Assuming the contract is announced by NJT this month, I'd expect demos by summer, and delivery completed by early 08.
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2007, 02:44:37 AM »

Surprised that MTS didn't make a proposal successful enough, considering they already have NJT's current specs for both transits and suburbans ready to go... it could have easily been an extension of the current contract.  Expect NABI 416 demos headed here to the Garden State later this year!

Yeah, that is surprising, but nice to see that NABI will be able to put out new 416s for the first time in a while.  I'm actually conflicted...I want MTS to succeed, but NABI 416s in NJT colors will be awesome.
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 08:07:06 AM »

Assuming the contract is announced by NJT this month, I'd expect demos by summer, and delivery completed by early 08.

Is it possible for NJT to lease a bus from SEPTA to train their drivers on (and their contractors) in the meantime? (I doubt that the loss of one would cause SEPTA to not make score.)
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 09:43:33 AM »

Is it possible for NJT to lease a bus from SEPTA to train their drivers on (and their contractors) in the meantime? (I doubt that the loss of one would cause SEPTA to not make score.)
They could, but that's rare for NJT.  They are so into customizing the dash, controls, and components, that anyone else's NABI would likely not work.  It's also preferable to get the powertrain you are going to use (so drivers can see how the bus will perform on a daily basis when they get their order), and NJT will likely stay with the Cat C9 and ZF automatic - doubtful any NABI 416s on the road have that combo.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 12:05:09 PM »

Could Orion eventually make a competing offer for NJT?  The Orion V is still in production.  Sorry, I don't see NJT buying Gillig Phantoms, as Gillig generally doesn't sell to major TAs.
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2007, 08:34:37 PM »

There is probably still bad blood between Orion and New Jersey Transit, stemming from the order that NJT refused to award it (despite it being the low bidder, and federal funds being used to buy the buses) which eventually culminated in a prison sentence for the president of NJ Transit Bus Operations at the time, Maureen Milan (she served 3 years in jail), for accepting bribes from Nova Bus (think: tickets to Broadway shows bought by Nova Bus), which led to Orion not being awarded the order, and thus reporting Milan's actions to the federal prosecutor.
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2007, 10:04:54 PM »

Orion winning any contract for NJT is a long shot in the near future. They seem dead set on wanting the Millennium RTS as the replacement for the Metro B's however if they don't win the company will be in big trouble. I can see NABI's running through the Jersey streets should they win a contract.
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 07:30:22 AM »

However, indications are that NABI won the Metro-D replacement contract already.
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 03:24:43 AM »

However, indications are that NABI won the Metro-D replacement contract already.

That would seem to be the case.  The first item on the agenda for next week's NJT Board Meeting reads as follows:

Authorization to contract (No. 06-085) with North American Bus Industries Inc. to purchase 1145 transit and suburban buses at a cost not to exceed $409,871,962 plus five percent for contingencies. Delivery will be 200 buses per year over a six year period replacing buses that have exceeded their 12 year useful life. All buses have wheelchair lifts and kneeling feature.

I figured they would at least replace the Flxibles with this order, but it looks like they're going to end up replacing the Nova A's (2600 series) and Nova B's (1000-series) as well.  Weird, but I can't believe that the Novas have been in service as long as they have; I can remember the first time I took a Nova on the 87 bus between Journal Square and Hoboken - I never knew that NJT had Novas, as I was so used to seeing Flxibles down in South Jersey.
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Creighton Rabs (aka ctrabs74)
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 09:19:35 AM »

Wow - winning that order is certainly a feather in NABI's cap.

Has the Millennium contract officially been cancelled by NJT?
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2007, 09:58:12 AM »

According to my bad math, even with all that from NABI, MTS can still built the Metro-B replacements, still lost out on the rest
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2007, 12:38:46 PM »

Authorization to contract (No. 06-085) with North American Bus Industries Inc. to purchase 1145 transit and suburban buses at a cost not to exceed $409,871,962 plus five percent for contingencies. Delivery will be 200 buses per year over a six year period replacing buses that have exceeded their 12 year useful life. All buses have wheelchair lifts and kneeling feature.

This certainly explains why NABI won.  No one else at this point (besides possibly Orion) would be able or willing to build standard floor buses into the next decade AND back them up for the life of the bus with parts and support.  As much as I love the RTS, Millennium has no track record to pull off an order of that size.  It's also good to see them return to the Public Service style of annual delivery in reasonable batches...  it's clear that the large bulk orders can cost you in other ways.

So it looks like we'll have:
- 289 2007 MTS RTS
- 200 2008 NABI 416
...and annual through
- 200 2013 NABI 416

This will give NJT one of the newest large fleets in the country... the oldest buses would be the CNG MCIs, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them replaced soon - they're underpowered for the task, and NJT would probably love to go with more hybrid MCIs to replace them.

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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2007, 12:51:20 PM »

Does the Millennium contract have an out clause allowing NJT to cancel it if those buses are as bad as we've heard they are?

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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2007, 01:31:01 PM »

Does the Millennium contract have an out clause allowing NJT to cancel it if those buses are as bad as we've heard they are?
Any contract can be canceled if there are severe quality issues, and out of warranty, there could simply be a situation like MTA and Flxible, where legal action would force the manufacturer to take them.

The next speculation would be, what will NJT number this fleet of NABIs?  I would imagine there will be some 35-footers in the order to cover the 80 short RTSes, plus there are 92 Metro-D suburbans.  So I would guess the following:
- 2801-2880 for the shorts
- 3001-3973 for 40-foot transits
- 4501-4592 for suburbans
This way, the 4100-series MTS transits aren't too out of sequence.  And of course, is contingent on NJT replacing the fleet 1 for 1 in terns of body type.  If they opt for more suburbans, that obviously changes the breakdown..
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2007, 08:08:12 PM »

Great info, everyone; thanks!
Do you think that NABI ever would win an NJT order for artics?
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2007, 12:45:57 AM »

Great info, everyone; thanks!
Do you think that NABI ever would win an NJT order for artics?
NJT won't need them until 2016 unless Neoplan parts dry up (they're trying to sell NeoPart in their BK proceedings to avoid that possibility, similar to how Flx sold their parts business when they went under).  If artics are needed before then, NABI is the only manufacturer of standard-floor artics right now, and the 436 would certainly be a plus thanks to the parts commonality.
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Mr. Harlem Line
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2007, 05:35:23 PM »

It makes me wonder why they are replacing the Novas so soon.

Aren't they in great condition?
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2007, 05:56:29 PM »

It makes me wonder why they are replacing the Novas so soon.

Aren't they in great condition?

The oldest of the Novas will be reaching 12 years of age very soon.
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2007, 07:11:22 PM »

It makes me wonder why they are replacing the Novas so soon.

Aren't they in great condition?

The oldest of the Novas will be reaching 12 years of age very soon.
Yep, later this year.

The Metro-Ds are already 12 and the first NABIs will likely be 2008 models (built in late 07/early 08). The Nova As won't get replaced until the 2009 and 2010 batches when those RTSes will be 14, then when the 2011 NABIs are delivered, the Nova Bs will begin hitting their 12th birthday (the first were delivered in June 1999).  NJT timed it very well.
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2007, 07:47:31 PM »

Has the Millennium contract officially been cancelled by NJT?

Not that I'm aware of.  The Millennium contract is for the replacement of the Metro-B fleet.  The NABI contract is for the replacement of the Metro-D and Nova fleets over the next 6 years.  These are two separate contracts.
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Creighton Rabs (aka ctrabs74)
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2007, 02:22:46 AM »

One thing I just realized...

NJT has put themselves in position to now take delivery of small batches of buses every year for quite some time.

Start with the 7 year replacement of all the transits and suburbans (MTS and NABI).  That will be finished in 2013.  In 2014, the first of the MCI D-series diesels will be 12.  Another spread-out order could be placed then for say 300 coaches per year for 5 years.  At that contract's completion in 2018, the last 53 D4500s will be 12 years old.  In 2019, guess what? The Millenniums will be 12 and the cycle can start again.  The beauty of it is, they can choose to put each annual buy for bid, or they can make it a long-term contract like the NABI proposal.

The Neoplan AN340/345 are gone.  The New Flyer D40S/D45S are gone.  Prevost has stated they are not interested in the commuter coach market.  Wonder who will challenge MCI for that next big order?
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2007, 03:18:27 AM »

One thing I just realized...

NJT has put themselves in position to now take delivery of small batches of buses every year for quite some time.

Start with the 7 year replacement of all the transits and suburbans (MTS and NABI).  That will be finished in 2013.  In 2014, the first of the MCI D-series diesels will be 12.  Another spread-out order could be placed then for say 300 coaches per year for 5 years.  At that contract's completion in 2018, the last 53 D4500s will be 12 years old.  In 2019, guess what? The Millenniums will be 12 and the cycle can start again.  The beauty of it is, they can choose to put each annual buy for bid, or they can make it a long-term contract like the NABI proposal.
You do realized that the MCI OTR buses can last more then 12 years (17-25 years at most) unless they had to retired due to mileage or NJ Tranist policy to replace buses and other issues. So, I don't see those OTR buses replaced by around 2016-2020 period.

The Neoplan AN340/345 are gone.  The New Flyer D40S/D45S are gone.  Prevost has stated they are not interested in the commuter coach market.  Wonder who will challenge MCI for that next big order?

I can think of  only 2-3 companies Van Hool, Mercedes Benz/Serta  or Orion?, Blue Bird (Yeah right) coach buses
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2007, 05:49:49 AM »

You do realized that the MCI OTR buses can last more then 12 years (17-25 years at most) unless they had to retired due to mileage or NJ Tranist policy to replace buses and other issues. So, I don't see those OTR buses replaced by around 2016-2020 period.

IIRC, it's actually FTA policy/recommendations as opposed to official NJT policy.  Although, a lot of the MC-9As did stay on the road for 15-20 years (a lot of them were on the further end of that scale as I recall).
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Creighton Rabs (aka ctrabs74)
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2007, 01:17:52 PM »

You do realized that the MCI OTR buses can last more then 12 years (17-25 years at most) unless they had to retired due to mileage or NJ Tranist policy to replace buses and other issues. So, I don't see those OTR buses replaced by around 2016-2020 period.
Ahhh, then you're forgetting when the MCI D-series demos were first delivered.  8011 and 8060 were sent to NJT in 1996, when the newest of the MC-9As (1984) had just turned 12.  The reason it took another 6 years was strictly $$ - FTA didn't have the appropriation until Congress passed the 2001 transportation bill.

Yes, MCIs last that long... but if the original operator keeps them that long, they have no resale value.  The 9As had an original purchase price of $157,600 when the order was placed in 1982.  When they were sold, they were getting just $8000.  The Metro Bs will bring in even less.  Getting rid of them at the 12-year mark means there's still some market value left.  The FTA does have allowances for trade-in or auction value that can be used to offset the new bus purchase (if you sell FTA-funded equipment without buying new replacements, the proceeds from the sale are supposed to be returned to Washington).

The other issue is parts.  It is the industry standard to guarantee OEM parts availability for 15 years from date of delivery.You don't want to keep buses past the parts guarantee, because no one will buy the used ones if no one will build the parts to repair them down the road.  Because of the Millennium order, there will be many factory RTS parts available for years to come - this makes Nova RTSes more valuable on the used market.  In contrast, Flxible's last deliveries will hit that 15 year mark in 2010, meaning no one (not even MCI who bought the Flx parts rights) is obligated to make parts after that.
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2007, 04:10:04 PM »

NJ Transit NABI Order To Include Closed Circuit Cameras

some portions...  and the ATU is on board with this as well:

NEWARK, NJ — At its regularly scheduled meeting tomorrow, the NJ TRANSIT Board of Directors is expected to authorize the purchase of 1,145 transit and suburban-style buses equipped with closed-circuit camera systems to enhance customer and employee security.

If approved, the purchase would renew the state’s bus fleet over a period of six years and mark the first time that NJ TRANSIT vehicles were delivered with closed-circuit cameras as standard equipment.

...

"The safety and security of our bus operators and customers is our highest priority, and we have worked closely with NJ TRANSIT to advance this issue," said Vito Forlenza, Chairman of the Amalgamated Transit Union. "The inclusion of the closed-circuit camera technology in NJ TRANSIT’s fleet would mean a big step forward in enhancing onboard safety."
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2007, 04:52:53 PM »

The deal is done!  Here's the NJT press release:

NJ TRANSIT BOARD APPROVES PURCHASE OF 1,145 NEW BUSES EQUIPPED WITH ON-BOARD CAMERA SYSTEMS
January 23, 2007

NEWARK, NJ — The NJ TRANSIT Board of Directors today authorized the purchase of 1,145 transit and suburban-style buses equipped with closed-circuit camera systems to enhance customer and employee security.
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2007, 08:06:47 PM »

DART First State (Delaware Transit Corp.) operates a fleet of NABI 416.13's.
These buses are equipped with five surveillance cameras (4 interior, 1 exterior) plus an on-board digital vido event recorder. They also are equipped with an automatic test system (ATS) for on-board self-diagnosis of the multiplexed electrical system. They are equipped with advanced mobile data terminals (AMDT) and automated stop announcement systems. They even have a separate footswitch that activates the hazard flasher.
Lots of high-tech stuff; do you think that NJT might use similarly high specs for their new fleet?
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2007, 08:24:07 PM »

I wish they would, I have been friends and former colleagues who retire from the MTA and work Part-Time at NJT. But it seem NJT is always just a basic type of carrier with no alot of extra bells and whistles, just look at the flexibles and artics. They had no many more add-ons they could of had but choose not to. I can hope bu i doubt it
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2007, 04:56:21 AM »

I wish they would, I have been friends and former colleagues who retire from the MTA and work Part-Time at NJT. But it seem NJT is always just a basic type of carrier with no alot of extra bells and whistles, just look at the flexibles and artics.

The only "bell and whistle" you're going to see on a typical NJT transit bus (compared to other major TAs) are the seats.  Other than that, there's no high-tech AVL or automatic stop announcement system or anything special, but the seats are probably the most comfortable to today's modern TAs...
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2007, 09:17:56 AM »

I give NJT a lot of credit for not loading up their buses with frivolous features.  You don't just buy that stuff when the bus is new - you also have to expend valuable maintenance dollars to keep those features in working order.  That money is better spent focusing on basic bus maintenance. 

Otherwise, you get a system like Boston's MBTA with its rattletrap TMC and Nova RTS's that never received a proper midlife overhaul but did receive nice new LED signs and stop-announcement systems. 

JD
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2007, 09:52:03 AM »

I wish they would, I have been friends and former colleagues who retire from the MTA and work Part-Time at NJT. But it seem NJT is always just a basic type of carrier with no alot of extra bells and whistles, just look at the flexibles and artics.

The only "bell and whistle" you're going to see on a typical NJT transit bus (compared to other major TAs) are the seats.  Other than that, there's no high-tech AVL or automatic stop announcement system or anything special, but the seats are probably the most comfortable to today's modern TAs...

However, in the end, even the basic equipment has to be maintained, and while most garages do a great job, Big Tree does a horrible job on maintenance compared to everyone else.

To that end, I can see the cost-benefit of only having less than half of the fleet with fareboxes. However, there should be cameras because of the danger associated with handling money and making change (although crime on NJT's MCI routes is extremely low, if at all.)
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