MTA's Concentration of Bus Depots North of 96th Street

[Driver@BTN]

Here's an opinion/article regarding the concentration of NYCT's bus depots in and north of Harlem, the communities concerns over health issues regarding them and what, if anything will be done to "clean the air", so to speak:

[

b]MTA's Choke Hold[/b]
Errol Lewis - New York Daily News - October 17 2006

A City Council hearing scheduled to take place in Harlem tomorrow will shine a spotlight on a health crisis that should have been fixed a long time ago: the MTA's concentration of bus depots north of 96th St. Harlem's elected officials, who collectively possess a formidable amount of seniority and clout, need to spend some of that political capital to rid uptown of the pollution that is literally killing their constituents.

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has seven bus barns in Manhattan, depots where vehicles get parked, fixed, fueled and relaunched every day. The diesel-powered buses that line up in and around the depots pump out smog day and night. All but one of the depots are north of 96th St., and house more than 1,300 buses - about one-third of the entire city fleet of 4,200. This overconcentration of vehicles contributes to the sky-high rates of asthma uptown. In 2003, researchers were startled to find that one in four kids in central Harlem had asthma - the highest rate in America. Community and environmental groups have rightly protested this state of affairs for years. One local organization, West Harlem Environmental Action (WE ACT), even sued the MTA for environmental racism in 2000. The charge of deliberate discrimination was thrown out, but the transit agency agreed to make changes uptown - promises that WE ACT Executive Director Peggy Shepard says haven't been kept. "After two years of discussion, things have been downgraded from agreement to 'we'll see if it's feasible,'" says Shepard. "There's no meat here. What we need to do is go to our elected officials and start over."

All of which brings us to the bus depot at W. 133rd St. and 12th Ave. Years ago, the MTA promised to convert the facility to handle low-pollution buses that run on cleaner-burning compressed natural gas. But Shepard says the MTA never made good on its promise, citing the cost of installing natural gas fuel tanks and other equipment in the location, and now says it prefers to use less costly new technology, such as hybrid diesel-electric buses that spew less pollution. But cleaner-running buses are only a partial solution. WE ACT is pressing a bunch of sensible additional demands, including the permanent closure of one depot, the mandatory use of hybrid vehicles at all uptown sites, and the relocation of depots from uptown to elsewhere in the city.

City Councilman John Liu, the chairman of the Council's Transportation Committee, says tomorrow's hearing - at 10 a.m. at the Harlem State Office Building on W. 125th St. - will spotlight the MTA's foot-dragging. "This is one more example of the MTA's lack of accountability," says Liu. "It can have deadly consequences." Liu needs backing from the crowd of uptown pols. They currently have more political juice than at any time since the days of the late Adam Clayton Powell Jr., the legendary congressman - and it's long since time they used it.

Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel is the dean of the state's congressional delegation and first in line to become chairman of the powerful Ways and Means Committee if the Democrats get control of the House of Representatives in next month's elections. Harlem Assemblyman Denny Farrell does triple duty as chairman of the Manhattan Democrats, the state Democratic Party and the Assembly's Ways and Means Committee. And state Sen. David Paterson is a shoo-in to become the next lieutenant governor. Together, these pols wield enough power to threaten funding for the MTA and force the agency to do what it should have done long ago: clean up, relocate or shut down the bus depots that are literally suffocating Harlem's children. Any opinions?

[NYCT Orion 05.501]

You know something, it's funny how these people can push the MTA around but these "Barns and Depots" were there BEFORE the apartments buildings were built...especially Mother Clara Hale and Amsterdam. Now where would we relocate the depots? Think about this. If the MTA shuts down let's say 126th St, then where would the MTA build a depot? At another location which is going to cause another protest from THAT neighborhood.

Here's something else that's funny. They blame the MTA for pollution but isn't there a sewage plant off of Riverside Drive around 155th St or something like that? Also, you have trucks roaring through the streets as well.

All I have to say is be careful what you wish for because it just might happen. Relocating bus depots could mean LONGER waits at bus stops.

Of course, that's my two cents on this.


Ray

[Cyberider]

Love that title, MTA's Choke Hold.  Sounds like someone has an ax to grind.  Is the air pollution measurably worse up there and can it really be attributed to the bus depots?

That sounds like people down here complaining about the stink from feed lots near their new neighborhood even though the feed lots were there decades before their new houses were.

[Rideonrulez]

It's funny that they complain about the buses polluting the air but then they get in there cars and drive 2 blocks to go to the store. Maybe they should look at there own everyday activities before they look at others.

[RJM]

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

[AMoreira81]

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

Well, there is a marked increase in asthma in the areas cited. Whether or not it is attributable to the MTA, however, I cannot say for certain. (These people do want to move out, but do not have the means to do so.)

It's funny that they complain about the buses polluting the air but then they get in there cars and drive 2 blocks to go to the store. Maybe they should look at there own everyday activities before they look at others.

The area affected, however, has heavy pedestrian traffic in the central business districts of the area. They are certainly making use of the power of the foot to get around. (However, these areas are the only areas where the MTA can build depots, and there would be too much NIMBYism in trying to locate a garage in a richer area  (not to mention full development).

[Pipe]

You know something, it's funny how these people can push the MTA around but these "Barns and Depots" were there BEFORE the apartments buildings were built...especially Mother Clara Hale and Amsterdam. Now where would we relocate the depots? Think about this. If the MTA shuts down let's say 126th St, then where would the MTA build a depot? At another location which is going to cause another protest from THAT neighborhood.

Ray

I agree with you 100%.When the people moved in to the neighborhood they seen the Bus Depots. If you see something you don't like about a neighborhood don't move there.                                         

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

They never had trolley buses in Manhattan. Then they had trolley cars the had under ground power lines. They can't have power lines above Street level in Manhattan some kind of City law about it. "Pipe"

[Future Motorman]

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

Well, there is a marked increase in asthma in the areas cited. Whether or not it is attributable to the MTA, however, I cannot say for certain. (These people do want to move out, but do not have the means to do so.)

It's funny that they complain about the buses polluting the air but then they get in there cars and drive 2 blocks to go to the store. Maybe they should look at there own everyday activities before they look at others.

The area affected, however, has heavy pedestrian traffic in the central business districts of the area. They are certainly making use of the power of the foot to get around. (However, these areas are the only areas where the MTA can build depots, and there would be too much NIMBYism in trying to locate a garage in a richer area (not to mention full development).

There is too much beating around the bush here. To put this all plain and simply, the depots are located in a predominately black, and hispanic neighborhood, in Manhattan. The one located in the soutern part (Michael J. Quill), is not located next to an apartment building. Manhattanville/100st/Mother Clara Hale is. Amsterdam is closed.  Kingbridge (my Depot) is not, but there are apartment buildings two blocks west of it. The issue is not the depots came first, then the apartment buildings. The issue is the area where they are located. The issue is who lives in the area where most of the depots are located. People were there before buses were even running the streets of NYC. It was not a desolate area, where people decided to move after the fact. Now I will say maybe that an apartment building was not across the street from the depot. To build one next to a depot is stupid. But there damn sure was one two or three blockes away. Diesel fumes spread as it leaves the exhaust pipe. It pollutes the area where it comes out the most (in this case Harlem/Inwood/Washington Heights), before it goes wherever the wind sends the rest of it. What the people in this area gripe is, that the MTA decided to build the depots in these areas, and not in areas like, The Upper East side, or the upper West Side. Hell, on Riverside drive there is a spacious park from 72st to 125st. Why not build a bus depot there. Central park is quite spacious. All the depots in Manhattan can fit buses in a part of that park. I'll tell you why. The people there are mostly white and wealthy. They have political clout, and a hell of alot of it. Do not tell me they do not, because that is a damn blatant lie. So people need to take their heads out of the ground and other places on themselves, and realize the truth. Remember, it is the people in Harlem that are complaining. Not the people South of 96st (from 5th-East End), south of 110st (from 5th-10th), or south of 116 (from 9th-Riverside Drive). So trolley cars/buses is a mute issue here. The issue of them getting in their cars, to go to the store, is mute, since most in Harlem cannot afford one. The issue is why were the depots built in a predominately black/hispanic area. It is not a coincidence that these area were selected to build the depots. It is not a coincidence that the asthma rate is higher in these areas. If you do not have money, and skin color that equals power, you are at the bottom of the totem pole. The great US of A, has a caste system just like India. It is just invisible to those who do not want to see the truth. Yes we have made strides. But it is still a long way to getting any respect. This is a great example of showing a group of people no respect.   

[Mark]

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

Well, there is a marked increase in asthma in the areas cited. Whether or not it is attributable to the MTA, however, I cannot say for certain. (These people do want to move out, but do not have the means to do so.)

It's funny that they complain about the buses polluting the air but then they get in there cars and drive 2 blocks to go to the store. Maybe they should look at there own everyday activities before they look at others.

The area affected, however, has heavy pedestrian traffic in the central business districts of the area. They are certainly making use of the power of the foot to get around. (However, these areas are the only areas where the MTA can build depots, and there would be too much NIMBYism in trying to locate a garage in a richer area (not to mention full development).

There is too much beating around the bush here. To put this all plain and simply, the depots are located in a predominately black, and hispanic neighborhood, in Manhattan. The one located in the soutern part (Michael J. Quill), is not located next to an apartment building. Manhattanville/100st/Mother Clara Hale is. Amsterdam is closed.  Kingbridge (my Depot) is not, but there are apartment buildings two blocks west of it. The issue is not the depots came first, then the apartment buildings. The issue is the area where they are located. The issue is who lives in the area where most of the depots are located. People were there before buses were even running the streets of NYC. It was not a desolate area, where people decided to move after the fact. Now I will say maybe that an apartment building was not across the street from the depot. To build one next to a depot is stupid. But there damn sure was one two or three blockes away. Diesel fumes spread as it leaves the exhaust pipe. It pollutes the area where it comes out the most (in this case Harlem/Inwood/Washington Heights), before it goes wherever the wind sends the rest of it. What the people in this area gripe is, that the MTA decided to build the depots in these areas, and not in areas like, The Upper East side, or the upper West Side. Hell, on Riverside drive there is a spacious park from 72st to 125st. Why not build a bus depot there. Central park is quite spacious. All the depots in Manhattan can fit buses in a part of that park. I'll tell you why. The people there are mostly white and wealthy. They have political clout, and a hell of alot of it. Do not tell me they do not, because that is a damn blatant lie. So people need to take their heads out of the ground and other places on themselves, and realize the truth. Remember, it is the people in Harlem that are complaining. Not the people South of 96st (from 5th-East End), south of 110st (from 5th-10th), or south of 116 (from 9th-Riverside Drive). So trolley cars/buses is a mute issue here. The issue of them getting in their cars, to go to the store, is mute, since most in Harlem cannot afford one. The issue is why were the depots built in a predominately black/hispanic area. It is not a coincidence that these area were selected to build the depots. It is not a coincidence that the asthma rate is higher in these areas. If you do not have money, and skin color that equals power, you are at the bottom of the totem pole. The great US of A, has a caste system just like India. It is just invisible to those who do not want to see the truth. Yes we have made strides. But it is still a long way to getting any respect. This is a great example of showing a group of people no respect.   

I can understand your contempt, but you have missed a very important point in this discussion.  These depots are located in many cases on the same land that the ORIGINAL STREETCAR COMPANIES built their barns, and they were built way back in the day [75, 80, 90 years ago], long before Blacks and Latinos moved into those neighborhoods.  When the MTA rebuilt depots like 100th St and Mother Clara Hale Depots back in the 80's, the neighborhood activists had their chances to stop their rebuilding.  Why they failed, the reason escapes me.  Maybe that they were rebuilt on the exact same location of the original barns had something to do with it.

Some of the depots needs to be moved like 126th St, which needs a lot of space to park all of their buses in a secure place.  Maybe they could move that depot to some spot in the industrial section of the South Bronx, just over the Willis Ave Bridge.  I think Kingsbridge is located in a perfect place, but the other depots is open to question.  Maybe the MTA should have put a depot down in the old Meatpacking district, or the Lower East Side before those neighborhoods became gentrified, maybe that will have solved the problem, but I do not know about that.

The MTA needs to have depots close to the starting point of most of their routes, and especially in traffic-choked Manhattan.  Long deadhead mileage is costly to an agency that must count pennies daily.

I feel your pain, but history and demographics has put people in this situation.

[Bob Sandewicz]

Given that the depots curently are located where they are (and closing some or all of them might not be an immediate option), and given that the asthma statistics in the areas cited are very real, the main question right now seems to me to be this: how can the MTA take realistic steps to improve the air quality be improved?
I'm not an expert, but maybe the increased use of hybrids is one approach (MV and MCH have them already; perhaps 126 St.should get them next) and maybe a re-look at CNG buses is another approach (I suspect that the "jury is out" on this one when it comes to air pollution).
Those depots that are older (e.g. Hale) possibly could be slated for relocation at some point in time sooner than later; modern depots (e.g. MV, 100 St.) probably would not be considered for relocation for quite some time.
It seems to me that this is a complex probem that needs a combination of immediate and longer term solutions.

[N19 Freeport]

The air pollution problems of Harlem must not be minimized.
I also apologize for the scattered ideas raised here.
In the late 1800's, electric traction removed two pollutions from upper Manhattan: 1) The flies from the manure heaps at car barns before cable and (quickly thereafter) electric traction moved streetcars.  2) When the elevated routes were electrified, soot along the el routes and into the windows of the same tenements as there now was lessened, but where were the power plants, and did they produce more or less toxicity?  The flies went, but the soot was "removed," that is, dispersed somewhere else. 
Even though I am a bus fan, I recall calling the new Surface Transit buses of the 1940's "stinkwagons," as they replaced TARS streetcars.
When idling at a traffic signal or waiting to enter a garage, do today's hybrids produce less particulate than a new "straight" diesel?
I wonder whether the idling NJ Transit diesel locomotives at Hoboken Terminal (idling 9-to-5 while the commuters are in their office buildings) produce more or less pollution than the traffic on the Lincoln Tunnel toll plaza and helix.
Yes, it is a complex problem, and wise changes must be made.
Joe McMahon

[Future Motorman]

If this is really a problem then we should go back to trolleybuses!

Well, there is a marked increase in asthma in the areas cited. Whether or not it is attributable to the MTA, however, I cannot say for certain. (These people do want to move out, but do not have the means to do so.)

It's funny that they complain about the buses polluting the air but then they get in there cars and drive 2 blocks to go to the store. Maybe they should look at there own everyday activities before they look at others.

The area affected, however, has heavy pedestrian traffic in the central business districts of the area. They are certainly making use of the power of the foot to get around. (However, these areas are the only areas where the MTA can build depots, and there would be too much NIMBYism in trying to locate a garage in a richer area (not to mention full development).

There is too much beating around the bush here. To put this all plain and simply, the depots are located in a predominately black, and hispanic neighborhood, in Manhattan. The one located in the soutern part (Michael J. Quill), is not located next to an apartment building. Manhattanville/100st/Mother Clara Hale is. Amsterdam is closed.  Kingbridge (my Depot) is not, but there are apartment buildings two blocks west of it. The issue is not the depots came first, then the apartment buildings. The issue is the area where they are located. The issue is who lives in the area where most of the depots are located. People were there before buses were even running the streets of NYC. It was not a desolate area, where people decided to move after the fact. Now I will say maybe that an apartment building was not across the street from the depot. To build one next to a depot is stupid. But there damn sure was one two or three blockes away. Diesel fumes spread as it leaves the exhaust pipe. It pollutes the area where it comes out the most (in this case Harlem/Inwood/Washington Heights), before it goes wherever the wind sends the rest of it. What the people in this area gripe is, that the MTA decided to build the depots in these areas, and not in areas like, The Upper East side, or the upper West Side. Hell, on Riverside drive there is a spacious park from 72st to 125st. Why not build a bus depot there. Central park is quite spacious. All the depots in Manhattan can fit buses in a part of that park. I'll tell you why. The people there are mostly white and wealthy. They have political clout, and a hell of alot of it. Do not tell me they do not, because that is a damn blatant lie. So people need to take their heads out of the ground and other places on themselves, and realize the truth. Remember, it is the people in Harlem that are complaining. Not the people South of 96st (from 5th-East End), south of 110st (from 5th-10th), or south of 116 (from 9th-Riverside Drive). So trolley cars/buses is a mute issue here. The issue of them getting in their cars, to go to the store, is mute, since most in Harlem cannot afford one. The issue is why were the depots built in a predominately black/hispanic area. It is not a coincidence that these area were selected to build the depots. It is not a coincidence that the asthma rate is higher in these areas. If you do not have money, and skin color that equals power, you are at the bottom of the totem pole. The great US of A, has a caste system just like India. It is just invisible to those who do not want to see the truth. Yes we have made strides. But it is still a long way to getting any respect. This is a great example of showing a group of people no respect.   

I can understand your contempt, but you have missed a very important point in this discussion.  These depots are located in many cases on the same land that the ORIGINAL STREETCAR COMPANIES built their barns, and they were built way back in the day [75, 80, 90 years ago], long before Blacks and Latinos moved into those neighborhoods.  When the MTA rebuilt depots like 100th St and Mother Clara Hale Depots back in the 80's, the neighborhood activists had their chances to stop their rebuilding.  Why they failed, the reason escapes me.  Maybe that they were rebuilt on the exact same location of the original barns had something to do with it.

Some of the depots needs to be moved like 126th St, which needs a lot of space to park all of their buses in a secure place.  Maybe they could move that depot to some spot in the industrial section of the South Bronx, just over the Willis Ave Bridge.  I think Kingsbridge is located in a perfect place, but the other depots is open to question.  Maybe the MTA should have put a depot down in the old Meatpacking district, or the Lower East Side before those neighborhoods became gentrified, maybe that will have solved the problem, but I do not know about that.

The MTA needs to have depots close to the starting point of most of their routes, and especially in traffic-choked Manhattan.  Long deadhead mileage is costly to an agency that must count pennies daily.

I feel your pain, but history and demographics has put people in this situation.

Thank you, but I had not missed the important point. Streetcars did not pollute. They ran on electricity. Diesel buses do. If it were a street car garage, asthma would not be an issue here. When the MTA decided to build these depots, why did they turn the streetcar barns into bus depots. They know diesel buses pollute. All you have to do is stand behind one, especially in those days, with the stink diesel. Now at least it is Ultra low Sulfur (I see they truck refilling the tanks when I clear in the night/early morning). It would of had been a good idea to move to a industrial type area. Across the Willis Ave and Third Ave bridges would of been a great idea for 126st.. It is industrial, with sanitation, a school bus company, a charter bus company, and a Trucking company. Plus there are several moving companies, with trucks.  Maybe the community activist did protest back then, when the old streetcar barns were turned into diesel bus depots. But, again who will listen to a bunch of minorities. Minorities were there before diesel buses, and diesel bus depots. That is what the topic is about. That is what the residents complaint is about. Their complaint is not about streetcars. Just because it was a streetcar barn, does not mean it is O.K. to build a diesel bus depot there. The MTA needed places in Manhattan for diesel buses, and chose an area where the residents will, and most likely have complained, but seeing who the residents were, knew they can get away with this. I can understand what you all are saying. It was a mass transit facility, and maybe that is why they used it for modern mass transit vehicles (even though these pollute). That would be like saying well a courthouse was once here, so lets build a prison here. They both deal with criminals. Safety for the residents would be an issue. Here it is a health issue with diesel bus depots. The people around Armonk, and White Plains complained of the noise of planes going into the Westchester County Airport at night. The airport was there first. This is what the County Executive told the people. That, I can agree with due to the fact PLANES still fly into there. A streetcar is not a diesel bus. They are two different things, even though they serve the same purpose. Electric streetcars are not using these depots. Again, diesel buses are. The cost of longer deadheads, is nothing compared to a group of children suffering asthma, at rates higher than anyone else in the city. Medical bills cost. Most of the residents there, cannot even pay those bills. No one will wait longer at a bus stop. If a bus suppose to show at 7a.m., it will show at 7a.m.. They will send it out earlier. KB's longest deadhead is for the Bx41, when starting, or terminating from 241st (35 minutes or something like that). 100st was just recently rebuilt, again. The area around the 145st bridge, in the Bronx would of been great for Clara Hale and 100st. The 100st lines start mostly at 125, or north of there. Clara Hale will just be across the river. What is that. An additional 3-5 whole minutes, if you want to take traffic into account. I will say KB is in a good location. I would even say 126st is, because the depot is not directly next to an apartment building. But they do need more places to park the buses securely. I fear for the drivers who gets into those buses at night. Alot of homeless, and tranny crack-whores hang out around that lot at 126st. Who knows who is in those buses especially when it gets cold.

I just get somewhat annoyed, when people see what they want to see, and not see what is really going on, and the truth is starring right at them. Some just chose to hide it, even though deep inside they know what is going on. Most are probably going to post that the residents, and possibly I, should shut-up, and not make a race issue out of this. For the man who tried to sue the MTA for enviormental racism, I give him a standing novation even though he failed. For this post, I stand by what I know is going on here, and so do the Harlem residents. I do not live in Harlem. I am a Yonkers man, born, raised and still live. Do not get me wrong. I have no gripe with three races, and countless ethnicities of people.  Bring me a hot female of each and I will show you. Last, the MTA is a great employer (time to kiss the bosses ass).       

[AMoreira81]

Of late, however, the MTA has taken steps to reduce pollution---with all NYCT buses now running exclusively on ultra-low sulfur diesel, except for those which run on CNG (which does not pollute as much as diesel buses in the 1980s did), and more diesel electrics on the road (BTW, CNG's particulates are worse than that of diesel, as they are finer). However, IMO, when the first artics become 12 around 2009, they should be replaced with diesel electric artics, until every model (even expresses) are diesel electric---the MTA could get MCI to make a D4500H to NJ Transit specs. (Most trucks and private buses in the area, OTOH, do not necessarily use ULSD.)

If they still insist on depots being closed...then the MTA should tell them that if the depots are closed, the routes would be lost also. See how well that goes over, considering the MTA is largely outside the local governmental machinery.

[Driver@BTN]

City Council Holds Hearing On Bus Fumes In Harlem
Roger Clark - New York 1 News - October 17 2006

The City Council held a hearing Wednesday to discuss ways to cut down on pollution from city buses. Residents who live near some of the MTA depots have been complaining about the adverse health effects from bus fumes for years, and they're calling on the MTA to put more hybrid buses on the streets. The hearing was held in Harlem, where six of seven bus depots are located. Residents say something needs to be done right away, NY1’s Roger Clark filed the following report.

Millicent Redick lives across the street from the Hale Bus Depot on 146th Street and Lenox Avenue in Harlem. She believes that had at least something to do with her children developing skin and respiratory problems. "My daughter and my son grew up with eczema, so I always had to use cortisone on their skin,” said Redick. “My daughter also developed asthma, so neither one of my children will live here."

Stories like that prompted the city council's transportation committee to hold a hearing in Harlem looking into the impact of New York City Transit Bus Operations on residents here. "For many years, residents, elected officials, health experts, community groups and advocates have accused the MTA of environmental racism," said Queens City Councilman, John Liu. Liu called it environmental racism because most of the residents in the area are blacks and Latinos. Medical experts testified about asthma rates in Harlem, which are twice the national average and community advocates partially blame that on diesel exhaust from buses. Peggy Shepard of West Harlem Environmental Action called on NYC transit to close one Uptown depot and rebuild the Hale Depot with a green design to limit emissions.  "We Act remains committed to getting the MTA to give us firm commitments regarding their environmental practices, and regarding public involvement in decisions that effect the operations of these depots," said Shepard.

In addition to taking MTA's New York City Transit to task on the bus depot issue, some elected officials at the hearing also wanted to know, why the agency did not send a representative to offer testimony." "Where is the MTA, they can't tell me that they can't show up,” said Manhattan Borough President, Scott Stringer. “And answer questions by you, it is absolutely a disgrace." The MTA said there was little point in showing up, since the organizers have already made up their minds about the issue. "MTA New York City Transit has demonstrated an aggressive and ongoing commitment to reducing bus emissions by investing more than half a billion dollars in developing new clean fuel technology," said NYC Transit in a statement. And the agency said, it operates the largest clean fuel bus fleet in the country.

[Flatbush41]

This is a very interesting situation which comes up time and time again. The number of depots above 96 St in Manhattan is certainly a disproportionate number in a relatively short radius however most have been there for a number of years. Moving Hale depot to the Bronx would probably be the best to do if it came down to the MTA possibly changing a location.

[RTS4660]

They are planning to reconstruct  Hale depot meaning close down and build it back up like 100th St, since it is now very outdated which what they should have done with Amsterdam when it closed.
Not to play devils advocate but no neighborhood wants a bus depot in thier backyard; however the city needs buses to get around just like no one wants to live near a waste dump and we need garbage pickup. Things ultimately take time and of course dollars, clean buses you are getting some as we speak. In addition not to throw this into a tangent Trucks also run on diesel, cars run on gas and when someone buys cheap gas you can see the exhaust and think look and what you are doing.
Im not saying it just the MTA's fault, but face it we all had a part in this too directly or indirectly.

[RailBus63]

I have a couple of questions about one part of the article:

The diesel-powered buses that line up in and around the depots pump out smog day and night.

At the newer multistory depots such as 100th Street, Manhattanville and Michael J. Quill, how much movement of buses (aside from pull-outs and pull-ins) occurs 'inside' as opposed to outside?  And do the ventilation systems do anything to filter the exhaust gases and 'clean' the air, or do they simply clear the dirty air out of the building and pump it outside?

Jim

[Driver@BTN]

I'm assuming the new 100th Street Depot employs greater environmental and technical buidling design advances, similar to what we'll see at Maspeth whenever it opens, but Manhattanville being years older doesn't incorporate that "green" technology. Even so, the entire fleet at MTV is stored indoors; buses don't run outside unless there's a pull-in fuel line and even that idling is minimal. And when starting the buses for the beginning of their workday, they are all started indoors, where the initial black smoke and soot bellows throughout the interior of the floors where it's sucked through vents that are filtered to trap a majority of the pollutants before being expelled into the atmosphere.

However, if you've ever been on the QV rooftop, where the same technology exists, you can easily smell (and sometimes see) the fumes as they emit from the exhaust vents.

The neighborhoods health and environmental concerns are valid, but to say that they are also racial is something I don't have any comment on. But remember, there are also depots on Fillmore Avenue and Cropsey Avenue in Brooklyn and in a 100% residential area of Queens (ala QV) that share the same environmental concerns without the racial overtones.

[TravKoolBreeze]

I doubt this issue will go away though as Harlem and the rest of N. Manhattan are under rapid gentrification (as seen in my part of Harlem).  Thus the issue of MV and MCH will now be continually brought up.  There are been nighs when I been past MCH after rush hour where buses are just idling outside waiting to go in.  Thus Esplanade Gardens (the apartment complex next to MCH) has a legitimate gripe.  Plus the bad construction on 145 st bridge makes for many buses and tractor-trailers to idle just trying to cross the intersection of 145st & Lenox Av.  I don't know exactly where they would move MCH in the bronx to have easy access the routes of the 1, 2, and 7.  The best bet is to push more of the HEVs in MCH and try again with a pure electric bus.

[NYCT Orion 05.501]

Yeah, let's give the people of Harlem what they want! Let's move the depots into the Bronx! Yeah, I'm sure they won't mind! Harlem has the highest rate of Asthma...HA! Well if the buses are to blame, then the DAMN CITY should be under an Asthma alert!


I lived in Jamaica ( a mainly black neighborhood) and their were no compliments about the Jamaica Bus Depot...except from the bus drivers who say that the depot is too small. Other then that...NOTHING! Or else I'd have asthma too!

I'm sorry. Most of you guys know me as a nice guy but this issue really pisses me off. Oh and I mentioned this the last time...isn't there a sewage plant on Riverside Drive near 155th St? Why not blame that OR trucks? Nope! The buses are slow so let's blame them!



Ray

[Q101viaSteinway]

Yeah, let's give the people of Harlem what they want! Let's move the depots into the Bronx! Yeah, I'm sure they won't mind! Harlem has the highest rate of Asthma...HA! Well if the buses are to blame, then the DAMN CITY should be under an Asthma alert!


I lived in Jamaica ( a mainly black neighborhood) and their were no compliments about the Jamaica Bus Depot...except from the bus drivers who say that the depot is too small. Other then that...NOTHING! Or else I'd have asthma too!

I'm sorry. Most of you guys know me as a nice guy but this issue really pisses me off. Oh and I mentioned this the last time...isn't there a sewage plant on Riverside Drive near 155th St? Why not blame that OR trucks? Nope! The buses are slow so let's blame them!



Ray

But then The Bronx will have alot of asthma.Furthermore I live near the LaGuardia Depot and that never made the news for anything except for the depot fire.

[Hawk Operator 10]

Everyone makes interesting points in this topic. So here is my two cents worth.

1.Lets us built a super size bus depot on Randalls Island right by the sports fields for the "expensive prep schools."
2. Put all the hybrid electrics at those Manhattan depots for three months, then test air quality and see if there is a significant difference. (just do not let the FEDERAL EPA do the test, they lie(WTC).  How about....Columbia University or one of the black colllege's science departments, they will, without a doubt, give the truth.)
3. Move a depot down the block from Mayor Bloomberg's address, he really shouldn't mind. Worse comes to worse, he could always fly out to the Alps for fresh air.
4. Replace the outdated MTA board of white men, sorry but its the truth, and put members of grass roots organizations and various community groups instead with actual knowledge of the needs of the community.
5. Put a bus depot over the west side rail yards and save the money as the MTA already owns the spot.
6. Buyout the surrounding areas of each depot, put all the MTA offices in those areas and see how they feel after awhile of breathing exhaust.  This would also consolidate upper MTA mangement and save on those huge rents in midtown, downtown, and in Jay Street.
7. Tell the MTA to clean up their act, do the right thing, and cut the crap!  Listen and respond to the entire minority community affected, the same way the MTA listened and responded to some old white female in Bayside a few years ago about buses going through a parking lot behind her building.

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading.

I am not anti -TA, but you know its funny how the "white communities" get what they want, so why not the "minority community?"

Furthermore I live near the LaGuardia Depot and that never made the news for anything except for the depot fire.

There are no real obstructions around Laguardia depot either holding the exhaust fumes in.

[Flatbush41]

Telling it like it is, very nice post above. I especially agree with #7, there is far too much nonsense going on these days. I don't see this issue of upper Manhattan depots going away for years to come. The article noted a demand from one group to close one current depot completely and this is probably out of the question for the time being but as I said previously the best people could hope for is one of the existing depots are moved.

[Chuck]

For a new topic, this one has really generated a great deal of interest. 

We had a similar situation down here in Baltimore, a large bus depot in a residential neighborhood.  In order to resolve the issue and placate all concerned, the MTA reassigned or retired a large percentage of older diesel buses, assigned 69 New Flyer Coaches with Clean Cummins Diesels, reassigned 25 Neoplans - because of the noisy turbochargers and improved bus maintenance.  No further problems.

New York is a different environment.  I would compromise with the communities and assign a reasonable number of Hybrid coaches to the affected depots - which is being done as we go to press and begin using ultra low sulphur fuel. 

As several other posters have stated, there are trash dumps, polluting trucks and Waste Water Facilities.  Negotiations must be conducted with the operators of these facilities.  They contribute to Harlem's Air Quality problems as much or more than the bus depots do.  And remember, the buses represent a transporetation lifeline for the community.

Air qiality is the responsibility of the Federal, State and City Governments as well as the citizens.  Work together folks - Community Activism works, but direct all of your anger at the MTA.

Chuck

Chuck

[TravKoolBreeze]

Yeah, let's give the people of Harlem what they want! Let's move the depots into the Bronx! Yeah, I'm sure they won't mind! Harlem has the highest rate of Asthma...HA! Well if the buses are to blame, then the DAMN CITY should be under an Asthma alert!


I lived in Jamaica ( a mainly black neighborhood) and their were no compliments about the Jamaica Bus Depot...except from the bus drivers who say that the depot is too small. Other then that...NOTHING! Or else I'd have asthma too!

I'm sorry. Most of you guys know me as a nice guy but this issue really pisses me off. Oh and I mentioned this the last time...isn't there a sewage plant on Riverside Drive near 155th St? Why not blame that OR trucks? Nope! The buses are slow so let's blame them!



Ray

The sewage plant you mentioned is just south of Riverbank on the river.  I doubt the smog and sewage smell makes it all they way up to where Riverside Dr is and effects the air.  That side of Harlem has always been windy thus the air is always getting cleaned.

I'm sorry but the people around MCH have reason to complain.  As for 126st., unless they are downwind of the depot when the wind is blowing south, then there is no problem.  The problem comes when the buses are coming back to MV and MCH and are idling outside as they wait to go in.  And you cant not deny the facts about the air quality.  No, the depots don't need to be moved out.  Rebuild MCH and help the venting system at MV.

[Future Motorman]

Telling it like it is, very nice post above. I especially agree with #7, there is far too much nonsense going on these days. I don't see this issue of upper Manhattan depots going away for years to come. The article noted a demand from one group to close one current depot completely and this is probably out of the question for the time being but as I said previously the best people could hope for is one of the existing depots are moved.

Everyone makes interesting points in this topic. So here is my two cents worth.

1.Lets us built a super size bus depot on Randalls Island right by the sports fields for the "expensive prep schools."
2. Put all the hybrid electrics at those Manhattan depots for three months, then test air quality and see if there is a significant difference. (just do not let the FEDERAL EPA do the test, they lie(WTC).  How about....Columbia University or one of the black colllege's science departments, they will, without a doubt, give the truth.)
3. Move a depot down the block from Mayor Bloomberg's address, he really shouldn't mind. Worse comes to worse, he could always fly out to the Alps for fresh air.
4. Replace the outdated MTA board of white men, sorry but its the truth, and put members of grass roots organizations and various community groups instead with actual knowledge of the needs of the community.
5. Put a bus depot over the west side rail yards and save the money as the MTA already owns the spot.
6. Buyout the surrounding areas of each depot, put all the MTA offices in those areas and see how they feel after awhile of breathing exhaust.  This would also consolidate upper MTA mangement and save on those huge rents in midtown, downtown, and in Jay Street.
7. Tell the MTA to clean up their act, do the right thing, and cut the crap!  Listen and respond to the entire minority community affected, the same way the MTA listened and responded to some old white female in Bayside a few years ago about buses going through a parking lot behind her building.

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading.

I am not anti -TA, but you know its funny how the "white communities" get what they want, so why not the "minority community?"


 

It is good to see a couple of posters who are takling about the topic at hand, and realize what the issue really is. That is why I posted what I posted. Again, it is not one depot, but a concentration of depots (plural). If it were one depot in Harlem there would not be an issue. There are 4 active depots in upper Manhattan (100st, MCH, MV, and KB). That is where the problem lies.

It is funny how the MTA would listen to some old white female, who complains about buses going through a parking lot behind her building, but would ignore the pleads of an entire community of minorities, who have serious health issues. 

[Driver@BTN]

Where the Air Leaves Them Breathless
Laura Rivera - The New York Times - November 5, 2006

Wendy Agustín, a Dominican mother of five who has lived in New York most of her life, never opens the windows of her cramped, two-bedroom apartment in a drafty six-story building opposite the 126th Street Bus Depot. That is because fumes from the nearly 200 buses that circulate daily through this tiny block, between First and Second Avenues, are making her children sick.

Recently, Ms. Agustín rushed her 3-year-old, Joshua, to Metropolitan Hospital Center when he started wheezing while strolling outside her building. “If I don’t keep those windows closed,” she said, “that smell rises up and comes in, a smell like diesel, a nasty stench. I feel bad that I can’t get my kids out of here, so they can breathe a different air. If I could pack up and leave tomorrow, I would.”  As she spoke, she leaned over her kitchen sink and soaked an asthma mask, which delivers medicine in mist form and is shared by her five children.

Longtime residents of Ms. Agustín’s block complain that fumes from the depot aggravate their asthma and leave a thick layer of soot over their possessions. The depot, which routes 176 diesel-engine buses through the block, is home to the M15 bus line, one of the country’s busiest, with about 64,000 riders a day, according to Charles Seaton, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Doctors and public health officials say diesel exhaust, among the most noxious of air pollutants, can cause asthma and lead to permanent lung damage.

Residents of East Harlem, which has six of Manhattan’s seven bus depots and the country’s highest rate of asthma hospitalizations, are all too familiar with the disease. But with a median income of $22,931, East Harlem is one of the city’s poorest neighborhoods, and for many of its residents, there is no easy escape.

Ms. Agustín, 29, has lived in the same building since she moved into it with her parents 11 years ago. “My father didn’t like this place, but he just held on anyway,” she said. “Sometimes we’re just stubborn folk. Even if we’re dying, we’ll stay put in the same place.”  When her son Joshua or his sister Wilmary, 6, has an asthma attack, Ms. Agustín sleeps with the child in the second bedroom, a windowless space carved out of the kitchen area. Her oldest, Adonai, 13, sleeps on the living room floor, which has two windows facing the depot. Until six months ago, Ms. Agustín supported her family working as a cook at the fondita — a small cafeteria and grocery — in the ground floor of her building. But she quit when her children’s asthma worsened, and she now gets by on public assistance. “When they get those attacks,” she said, “I have to give myself over to them, heart and soul.”

Local officials, public health experts and residents gathered two weeks ago at a public hearing sponsored by We Act, a Harlem-based environmental group, to discuss ways to deal with Upper Manhattan’s bus depots. Another hearing is scheduled this month; local people concerned about the problem hope they will ultimately be able to persuade the M.T.A. to enforce rules on idling and reduce diesel emissions. Though asthma is a complicated disease, many national studies have shown that the tiny particles that come from diesel exhaust are among the most dangerous pollutants. Levels of these minute particles, measured two blocks away from the depot every three days, are hovering near the federal limit, according to the state’s Department of Environmental Conservation.

Ms. Agustín, meanwhile, simply wants to move. “I tell my kids not to worry, that before they’re grown up, I’m going to give them a real, beautiful home,” she said, “one they can be comfortable in, and open the window, and breathe the fresh air."

[Q101viaSteinway]

Everyone makes interesting points in this topic. So here is my two cents worth.

1.Lets us built a super size bus depot on Randall's Island right by the sports fields for the "expensive prep schools."
2. Put all the hybrid electrics at those Manhattan depots for three months, then test air quality and see if there is a significant difference. (just do not let the FEDERAL EPA do the test, they lie(WTC).  How about....Columbia University or one of the black colllege's science departments, they will, without a doubt, give the truth.)
3. Move a depot down the block from Mayor Bloomberg's address, he really shouldn't mind. Worse comes to worse, he could always fly out to the Alps for fresh air.
4. Replace the outdated MTA board of white men, sorry but its the truth, and put members of grass roots organizations and various community groups instead with actual knowledge of the needs of the community.
5. Put a bus depot over the west side rail yards and save the money as the MTA already owns the spot.
6. Buyout the surrounding areas of each depot, put all the MTA offices in those areas and see how they feel after awhile of breathing exhaust.  This would also consolidate upper MTA mangement and save on those huge rents in midtown, downtown, and in Jay Street.
7. Tell the MTA to clean up their act, do the right thing, and cut the crap!  Listen and respond to the entire minority community affected, the same way the MTA listened and responded to some old white female in Bayside a few years ago about buses going through a parking lot behind her building.

Just my thoughts, thanks for reading.

I am not anti -TA, but you know its funny how the "white communities" get what they want, so why not the "minority community?"

Furthermore I live near the LaGuardia Depot and that never made the news for anything except for the depot fire.

There are no real obstructions around Laguardia depot either holding the exhaust fumes in.

If we were to build a super sized depot will the buses be maintained as well as the individual depots?Or will we have another Castleton or a Yukon?

[Hawk Operator 10]

If we were to build a super sized depot will the buses be maintained as well as the individual depots?Or will we have another Castleton or a Yukon?

If the MTA built a super size depot, the same personnel would move into it.  Yes the maintenance could be maintened.  I have never been to Yukon or Castleton, so I do not understand their relevance.

The MTA could make a super size depot at College Point by taking over the police inpound yard.  You could easily move two or three depots into this area and NO ONE WOULD COMPLAIN as no one is within reach of it.

[Q101viaSteinway]

If we were to build a super sized depot will the buses be maintained as well as the individual depots?Or will we have another Castleton or a Yukon?

If the MTA built a super size depot, the same personnel would move into it.  Yes the maintenance could be maintened.  I have never been to Yukon or Castleton, so I do not understand their relevance.

The MTA could make a super size depot at College Point by taking over the police inpound yard.  You could easily move two or three depots into this area and NOONE WOULD COMPLAIN as noone is within reach of it.

Who is Noone?

[W8hou]

Who is Noone?

He meant to say NONE.

[Hawk Operator 10]

Who is Noone?

He meant to say NONE.

"No one is no one."  Sorry for the typing error.  The described area is an industrial park area in College Point.

[Driver@BTN]

Activists Use Research To Win Pollution Battles
Charisse Jones - USA Today - December 5 2006

The buses idle along 146th Street, the faint smell of diesel exhaust in the air. The weathered brick bus depot sits across the street from day care and recreation centers for seniors and children. Millicent Redick raised a son and daughter here in Harlem, across the street from the city's Mother Clara Hale Bus Depot. She recalls how they both suffered from eczema and asthma. "I was always led to believe that I had to keep the dust out of my apartment, so I cleaned all the time," says Redick, 61, a retired accountant. "But I was never informed that the air we were breathing played a role. … I thought it was all me." Then she learned of connections between pollution and asthma attacks, and cleaning up the air became her new mission. "I've always felt strongly that no matter where I live, I have a right to everything every other community has," she says. "That's what I fought for."

Five of Manhattan's six bus depots are north of 96th Street. The struggle by residents and activists against that concentration is one of many environmental battles being waged around the nation in a campaign to improve the health and safety of poor and minority communities. "People are not … taking the poison quietly," says Robert Bullard, director of Clark Atlanta University's Environmental Justice Resource Center and author of the book Dumping in Dixie: Race, Class, and Environmental Quality. "Over the last decade or so, not only do you have communities fighting, but they also have developed alliances and coalitions with scientists and lawyers and economists."

Neighborhood activists from California to Washington, D.C., are using a growing body of research on how pollutants exacerbate illness to block the building of facilities, relocate residents from contaminated communities and gain other concessions from large firms. "One of the problems with all environmental struggles, but particularly when you have the overlay of environmental racism, is the community always has the burden of proof of harm," says Elizabeth Crowe, an organizer with the Kentucky Environmental Foundation in Berea, Ky. Now, "we have much more definitive information as to how bad this stuff is. … So the science is catching up to the experiences of folks on the ground, and it helps prove the point."

Among recent developments:

• A group in Port Arthur, Texas, signed an agreement on Nov. 6 with Motiva Enterprises under which the oil company will pour up to $3.5 million into the impoverished neighborhood as it expands a refinery there. The money will help fund new local businesses.

• A plan to build a nuclear waste storage facility on the Skull Valley Goshute Indian reservation in Utah was scuttled in September by the federal Bureau of Land Management and Bureau of Indian Affairs. The agencies were concerned that it would have a negative impact on the reservation, says attorney Paul EchoHawk, who represented tribal members opposing the project.

• From Sept. 24 to Oct. 1, representatives of more than 70 social justice and human rights groups toured the nation by bus caravan, visiting communities where residents face health problems associated with pollution.

High asthma rates

Upper Manhattan's bus depots, many of them former trolley barns, have been around for nearly a century. The New York City Council's transportation committee held a hearing in October on the concentration of bus depots in Harlem, which has the city's highest rate of asthma hospitalizations for children 14 and younger, according to the city Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. The department says diesel particulates have been proved to worsen asthma. "We think (the depots are) very, very responsible for the high asthma rates in the community," says Kizzy Charles-Guzman, policy coordinator of the group WE ACT for Environmental Justice. "It goes beyond air quality. … It's also quality of life impact. You have constant noise and vibrations from the buses, and we also have sanitation truck depots and sewage treatment facilities. … We're not necessarily saying let's shut down the depots and move them all over the city, but if all the clean buses the (bus agency) claims to have in the fleet were assigned to these particular depots, that would help."

MTA New York City Transit, which operates 4,489 buses, says it is dealing with pollution. "No one has done more to improve air quality than New York City Transit," spokesman Charles Seaton says. "We have more than 350 hybrid electric buses on the road. … And the majority of them are in depots in Upper Manhattan."

Movements converge

The environmental justice movement took root in the South in the early 1980s, when activists, church leaders and residents complained that toxic waste sites and other polluters often were located in poor and black neighborhoods. Their protests merged the struggle for a clean environment with that of civil rights. Winning environmental justice cases in court has become more difficult since a 2001 Supreme Court decision increased the legal burden for those filing suit under the 1964 Civil Rights Act by requiring proof of intentional discrimination, Bullard says. Analyzing the location of many landfills, chemical plants and highways, Bullard says, "you have to ask is this random or patterns that follow historically the path of least resistance? … If you don't have a lot of resources in terms of money, experts, lawyers and political leaders to divert those things, you are going to get (them)."

Ted Cromwell, senior director of security and operations for the American Chemistry Council, which represents leading U.S. chemical firms, says businesses don't target certain communities.  "In the vast majority of situations, chemical plants have been in place for many, many years," Cromwell says. Since the late 1980s, emissions from group members' factories have dropped more than 75%, he says. "It's not so much plants being sited in these communities as it is communities building up around them and over time the demographics change." Some activists see progress. Companies increasingly are trying to create safer products, says Crowe of the Kentucky foundation. "What community organizers look for is … steps forward."

Resolution in Texas

In the Port Arthur case, Hilton Kelley says the agreement he and his organization, Community In-Power and Development Association (CIDA), reached with Motiva is "a significant victory" for his neighborhood. "We found out it would be difficult to stop the (refinery) expansion, but we were able to negotiate some things for our community's well-being and for our economic stability," Kelley says. Kelley and his group had challenged Motiva's application to increase the production capacity of its refinery from 275,000 to 600,000 barrels of crude a day. Motiva now has agreed to provide air- pollution monitors and other controls. It also will help finance a local health clinic to offset the medical expenses of residents and supplement services for the diagnosis and treatment of asthma and other respiratory ailments in children. Extensive pollution controls at the facility were planned before the community challenge, says Rick Strouse, a refinery manager. However, "CIDA had some concerns. I think we've resolved them."

Fight goes on in Harlem

In New York City, concerns remain over the buses in Harlem.  "This is first and foremost a health issue that is important to the residents and children of Harlem," says City Councilman John Liu, who heads the committee that held the hearing. "Secondly, it's a simple matter of honest accountability." Redick, who has lived in her Harlem apartment for 38 years, says neighbors living closest to the depot entrance never "can open their windows. Never." She has also noticed the cough her 4-year-old granddaughter develops when she visits — which disappears once she returns home. So Redick fights on.  "I have a right to walk down the street," she says, "and see flowers and trees and pretty buildings and people with smiles on their faces."